Recommended Products for Limestone Floors

Dirty Grout can be Frustrating. Appears darkened and dirty. If you are struggling to get it clean – review Stained-Grout – as what appears dirty may be fighting you because it is actually stained. MARBLELIFE Tile & Grout Cleaner for daily use and MARBLELIFE MAXOUT Grout Cleaner to tackle particularly stubborn dirty grout.

DIRTY GROUT

There is a difference between CLEAN and CLEANABLE. CLEAN is the absence of oil and dirt. That does not mean that the surface will necessarily look clean but rather that it is free of oil and dirt. How can that be? Damaged surfaces often exhibit a similar appearance. In order to effectively clean grout, the grout should first be sealed so that the dirt and oil is restricted to the top surface, versus being allowed to enter the pores in your grout. Once in the pores, even the best cleaner is going to have issues, as the mechanics of agitation are blocked. This is like trying to clean a test tube with a sponge you simply cannot get down into the pore to address the dirt build-up. The result is a continued dull or dingy appearance. The surface can be clean but the interior is contributing glimpses of the dirt within the depths out of reach of your mop, sponge or brush.

Powerwashing can help as we utilize the force of the water to enter and flush the grout pore, but this is temporary, as the root cause has not been addressed. Great for the cleaning service who get re-occurring income, but not for the grout owner.

A permanent fix is available but requires a restoration service provider knowledgeable in what is happening here, how to clean and prepare the surface, how to reseal the surface to keep future dirt on the surface when you can easily remove it, and then doing so in a manner that will restore the uniform cleanable surface you are trully seeking.

• DIRT – Dirt is generally an oil on the surface to which dust and dirt are clinging. We can address this with a daily cleaner that can attack and emulsify oils while also lifting and solubilizing dirt.
• STAINING – will present as a “Dirty” appearance but tends to be very difficult to remove. Staining implies it has penetrated the surface. In the case of grout this is due to a failure of the GROUT’s SEAL. Most grout seals employ an acid sensitive sealer which when cleaned over time with vinegar or an acidic cleaner is broken down and removed, leaving the grout to absorb dirt solubilized by the cleaner and during the tile-and-grout cleaning process. This collects in the lower grout line, where it can enter the pores. The water then evaporates leaving behind a layer of dirt until the pore is filled. Very difficult to remove with standard cleaning as one cannot get into the pore to agitate with a mop or brush. Powerwashing can direct energy into the pore to agitate and lift out much of the dirt, but does nothing to correct the problem – an unsealed grout surface.

MARBLELIFE PRODUCTS

MARBLELIFE MAXOUT – Formulated not just to clean, but to break the water tension that often prevents water from entering and flushing pores. MAXOUT is designed specifically for that first clean on a dirty floor. You will be amazed how the product color changes to dirty grey as it works. On sanded grout, when done you will be able to see individual sand quartz glinting back. If you still see darkening, then you likely have unsealed grout and may need an additional service to flush deep into the pores, and then reseal to prevent dirt penetrating again.

MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER CONCENTRATE or MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER READY-TO-USE – Daily cleaning of tile and grout with MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER CONCENTRATE will quickly emulsify oil and dirt making it easy to remove to your bucket with a damp mop. This product will also work to keep your mop water clean as it is engineered to drop the dirt to the bucket bottom so the mop water stays cleaner longer resulting in fewer mop bucket changes and a cleaner floor.

If you are frustrated because you cannot get your dirty grout clean OR you have cleaned it but it comes back routinely, OR you have tried numerous products without success, then you are probably dealing with unsealed grout, or grout that has been treated or cleaned with vinegar or an acidic cleaner that has destroyed the existing seal. In effect, the issue may be that you CANNOT get it clean until the root cause damage has been addressed. Have no fear we have solutions for this as well. Once addressed, you can have a CLEAN appearance and will find maintaining it is MUCH easier.

This can be addressed as follows:

MARBLELIFE SERVICE

STEP 1 - Powerwash with an oil emulsifying cleaner like MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER CONCENTRATE to remove surface dirt and as much as possible from grout pores.

STEP 2 - Reseal pore. A clear seal will freeze the appearance which may not be perfect, so one wants a colorized sealer colored to match the original grout. This will restore a uniform appearance as it fills in and seals the grout line. This sealer needs to be acid resistant. MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL was expressly formulated to be acid resistant while also allowing us to color it to match existing grout or change its color.

STEP 3 - Reglaze the tile – if the tile is worn or matte MARBLELIFE can reglaze the tile surface to restore a new appearance, and do so with several benefits including anti-slip performance, anti-graffiti and mold resistance. You may not need these features but they are built into the MARBLELIFE TILELOK glazing system.

POST MARBLELIFE RESTORATIVE SERVICE CARE PRODUCTS – we guarantee you will have a clean uniform appearance, and will have a MUCH easier time maintaining a clean appearance as follows:

Clean with non-acidic, non-wax containing, non-oil containing degreaser and emulsying cleaners such as MARBLELIFE FLOOR CONCENTRATE CLEANER.

• Once restored, maintaining a clean appearance IS EASY.
• Stay away from cleaners that offer additional benefits such as
  • Scented = deposits oils to the surface which trap dirt
  • Shine = often means they have incorporated waxes to enhance reflectivity. Problem is that wax is deposited before the surface is cleaned trapping dirt over time, and requiring a professional service to remove.
  • Acid = Your tile or granite may be acid safe, but unless your grout has been sealed with MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL it is likely not acid resistant. Penetrating sealers, silicone sealers, siloxane sealers are all acid sensitive.

• Once restored, maintaining a clean appearance IS EASY.
• Stay away from cleaners that offer additional benefits such as
  • Scented = deposits oils to the surface which trap dirt
  • Shine = often means they have incorporated waxes to enhance reflectivity. Problem is that wax is deposited before the surface is cleaned trapping dirt over time, and requiring a professional service to remove.
  • Acid = Your tile or granite may be acid safe, but unless your grout has been sealed with MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL it is likely not acid resistant. Penetrating sealers, silicone sealers, siloxane sealers are all acid sensitive.

MARBLELIFE recommends using MARBLELIFE FLOOR CONCENTRATE CLEANER for your daily cleaning. It is wax free, oil free and acid free. Formulated as an exceptional degreasing and emulsifying cleaner to quickly and easily lift dirt and debris from the surface. Also formulated to move dirt out of your way when working with a mop bucket as it will drop dirt and emulsified oil out of solution to the bottom of the bucket to maintain your water as clean as possible. Glue a quarter to the bottom of the mop bucket and change the water as soon as you cannot see the quarter.

CLEANERS:

MARBLELIFE® Tile & Grout Floor Cleaner Concentrate 32oz Squeeze & Pour

Marblelife Tile & Grout Cleaner – Countertop & Floor Cleaners
Cleans Beautifully While Saving You 80% Over Ready-To-Use

• Most Effective & Ecconomical
• Supported by World’s Leading Stone Service Company
• 100% Satisfaction Guarantee Plus
• Eco-Friendly & Made in America
• Safe & Effective, No Harsh Chemicals or Odors and 100% Grout Safe

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MARBLELIFE MAXOUT CLEANER – PRE-MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL SERVICE CLEANER

Is formulated reduce water’s natural water tension to enable it to more easily enter grout pores and float out the dirt and oils that have penetrated. So effective that one can see the cleaner turn dark as it pulls up oils and dirt. Once done one can actually see sand crystals in sanded grout glint back. This is an effective pre-treatment prior to applying MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL.

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MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER – EVERYDAY MAINTENANCE CLEANER

Once properly sealed any dirt or oil is forced to remain on the surface where it can easily be removed with MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER which is formulate to emulsify oils, greases, and fats that serve to help stick dirt to your floor and surfaces. This is a superior cleaner formulated to clean without acids and without depositing any oils or waxes which can result in grout damage and staining.

Once MARBLELIFE COLORSEALED your floor is not just CLEANABLE again, but easily cleaned with MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER.

For larger areas consider MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER which comes in a concentrate gallon capable of making 32 gallons of cleaner.

Buy this product!

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Stained and dirty grout is a common problem. Virtually every grouted floor will eventually run into this problem, until they have been MARBLELIFE Colorsealed. This is characterized by a darkening of grout lines in high traffic areas, and can be observed as a difference between grout along walls, baseboards and walls versus high traffic floor areas. Good News - there is a specialty product solution that can take care of this for you.

Stained Grout

Grout is naturally porous, unless it has been properly sealed. This assumes the installer can tell whether they have applied enough material to fill the open pore, or just to get the surface wet.

Once sealed, one must be careful not to introduce acidic cleaners which are capable or reversing the seal chemistry and allowing the seal to be washed away with each cleaning.

As a result, most grout seals have or will fail. Once can either re-seal or shift to a non-acid sensitive solution such as MARBLELIFE-Colorseal.

Once stained, grout needs to be cleaned to remove embedded dirt and oils. However, cleaning a stained grout line is like trying to clean the bottom of a test-tube with a sponge, it is very difficult to get into those tight spaces. As such, one needs to powerwash or introduce a surfactant based cleaner to reduce water tension to allow the cleaner to penetrate and float out dirt and oils.

Once removed the grout may be clean, but is still open. As such one must re-seal in some fashion to prevent a re-occurrence. Today, powerwashing grout is a good repeat maintenance business but does the customer a dis-service as it fails to remedy the root cause – unsealed grout.

MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL was developed to enable our craftsman to apply a solution that would halt this problem once and for all. Engineered to be impervious to acids, even if one were to continue to introduce an acid cleaner after sealing with MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL the product would remain intact preventing dirt from penetrating the grout surface.

MARBLELIFE then went a step further enabling the product to be colored to match the existing grout color OR to a preferred new color. (Yes, we can change white to black and black to white or any other color you may desire). This allows the installer to ensure that all grout surfaces have been fully sealed, as the color will shadow in areas of high porosity enabling our installers to ascertain which areas need additional material. When complete, a MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL floor will be better-than-new, with superior color uniformity, and an acid resistant seal that can stand-up to future cleaning – even it is with an acidic cleaner.

CLEANERS:

MARBLELIFE MAXOUT CLEANER – PRE-MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL SERVICE CLEANER

Is formulated reduce water’s natural water tension to enable it to more easily enter grout pores and float out the dirt and oils that have penetrated. So effective that one can see the cleaner turn dark as it pulls up oils and dirt. Once done one can actually see sand crystals in sanded grout glint back. This is an effective pre-treatment prior to applying MARBLELIFE COLORSEAL.

Buy this product!

MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER – EVERYDAY MAINTENANCE CLEANER

Once properly sealed any dirt or oil is forced to remain on the surface where it can easily be removed with MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER which is formulate to emulsify oils, greases, and fats that serve to help stick dirt to your floor and surfaces. This is a superior cleaner formulated to clean without acids and without depositing any oils or waxes which can result in grout damage and staining.

Once MARBLELIFE COLORSEALED your floor is not just CLEANABLE again, but easily cleaned with MARBLELIFE TILE & GROUT CLEANER.

For larger areas consider MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER which comes in a concentrate gallon capable of making 32 gallons of cleaner.

Buy this product!

Mold spores are ever present, however they need a damp and preferably dark area with access to organic material to settle and grow. The stain observed is not the fungi itself but its waste product, still can be difficult to remove. Good News - there is a specialty product solution that can take care of this for you.

Red or Black Mold & Mildew stains

Mold spores are ever present, however they need a damp and preferably dark area with access to organic material to settle and grow. The stain observed is not the fungi itself but its waste product, still can be difficult to remove

Change the environment to improve drying or airflow can halt the re-appearance once cleaned and removed.

If mold is present remove mold and mildew stains with ease and without risk of damage to your surfaces with MARBLELIFE MOLD & MILDEW STAIN REMOVER

CLEANERS:

Mold & Mildew Cleaner 2x (2x Retail Strength)

Power through mold and mildew stains to restore a blemish free surface without damaging tile, grout or grout seal.

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Mold & Mildew Cleaner 6x (Professional Strength)

Power up the effort with the strongest cleaner on the market. Dilute it back as a concentrate or use as is to power through mold and mildew. Excellent for use in showers, driveway and patios.

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The chemicals that hold your soap together also help it to stick to your shower and tub walls and floor. White and soft in color. VERY difficult to remove by hand. Good News - there is a specialty product solution that can take care of this for you.

White Soap Scum

The chemicals that hold your soap together also help it to stick to your shower and tub walls and floor. White and soft in color. VERY difficult to remove by hand.

The easiest way to remove is with a mild abrasive, however this can result in damage to the underlying surface. As such, MARBLELIFE developed an abrasive designed to be harder than soap but softer than the surface we are cleaning so it crumbles on contact.

MARBLELIFE Soap Scum Remover is both the solution and the cleaner. Once free-of-soap maintain using the appropriate surface MARBLELIFE cleaner.

CLEANERS:

Soap & Scum Remover

If you have a soap dish, you likely have soap scum. Soap Scum Remover is engineered to cut through soap without damaging tile to rapidly remove soap scum problems and restore a soap free surface. Actually fun to use. You can feel and hear when you are once again soap-free.

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Generally when you see a white smudge, ring, spill mark, spot or dirt on marble, limestone, travertine, concrete or terrazzo it is either hard water or an etch. If it is smooth it is an etch. If it is crusty and above the surface it is hard water, but if it is crusty and below the surface it is a bad etch. These are very different issues, neither of which can be addressed with a cleaner, and both require professional service. No cleaner is going to restore a smooth, appropriate colored, mark-free surface – the GOOD NEWS is MARBLELIFE can restore your surface to like new

White Dirt = Etches - White spots, rings spill marks

An acid has come in contact with your acid-sensitive hard surface and dissolved a mark into your surface. No cleaner can remove this mark. It must be professional corrected.

Marble, limestone, travertine, the marble chips in terrazzo are all made of Calcium Carbonate. Calcium Carbonate is acid sensitive. Acids will react with CaCO3 to form a salt and CO2, and that salt is water soluble, meaning that this by-product to acid attack is washed away by water or a cleaner.

Generally, acid is introduced in one of the following manners:

1. Cleaning with vinegar
2. Spritzing lemon or lime making a drink
3. Cutting lemon, lime or tomatoes directly on this surface
4. Spilling salad dressing or spaghetti sauce on this surface
5. Spilling pickle juice on this surface
6. Or CLEANING WITH A CLEANER THAT CONTAINS ACID/
7. Mistaking an etch for a hard water deposit and using a hard water deposit remover (strong acidic) to remove it, making it substantially whiter (worse).

Etches can be corrected. This requires the damaged area to be re-honed smooth and then re-polished and re-sealed.

This is NOT something you want to do yourself, as additional damage can be done during the honing and during the polishing stage if not done correctly, if one does not understand that processes and the reason they are being used.

If you have ever cleaned this surface, only to see the marks come back later, this is another symptom of an etch. This is the result of the fact that etch is no a low spot in your surface that collects and pools cleaner. When the surface begins to evaporate the shallower depth of cleaner on the unmarred surface evaporates away before the deeper portion filling in your etch. Light can bounce true off the surface of the liquid in the etch giving it the appearance of having disappeared, but once the evaporation process is complete the etch returns as the light can no long bounce true.

The good news is that etch damage can be 100% repaired. The surface needs to be re-leveled and then re-polished to restore a surface that is so smooth that light can bounce off it true (to restore your gloss appearance), and the white salts and crushed stone has been removed.

You will need a professional craftsman to restore this damage. CALL MARBLELIFE, to discuss your situation, secure an estimate, restore your finish, and learn how to avoid and care for this surface without creating additional damage/

Products
No cleaner will resolve this problem, BUT once restored you will want to be sure to utilize a product that contains no waxes, oils or acids, else you will risk re-creating the problem.

MARBLELIFE’s cleaners are formulated with our restoration root cause knowledge in mind. MARBLELIFE MARBLE & TRAVERTINE cleaner will provide an exceptional acid-free cleaner capable of quickly providing a clean, streak-free, oil-grease and fat-free surface.

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Do you clean with Vinegar? This this one is for you. Vinegar has many benefits – but cleaning is really not one of them. The downsides created with cleaning with an acid accumulate with time to generate an expensive restoration bill. Its recommendation, is based on inappropriate wives tales.

Marble, limestone, Travertine, Terrazzo and concrete are all acid sensitive. Vinegar is acidic. If you are cleaning your floor with vinegar, you WILL see a loss in shine that accumulates over time as you slowly move from a gloss finish to a matte finish, You will also see a generally lightening of the tile color, while grout lines begin to darken particularly in high traffic areas. The grout color change can be offset if you original color was dark gray or black which will begin to soften and lose their color depth.

GOOD NEWS! We can restore your surface to its original appearance, and provide you an appropriate non-damaging replacement for your vinegar cleaner.

Dull spots (vinegar)

TILE – Marble, limestone, terrazzo and concrete will all react to vinegar poorly. Ceramic and Porcelain are acid-resistance and will not be damaged in this way BUT their grout is not so fortunate (See the section on grout staining below)

Vinegar will react with CaCO3 in these products to form a water dissolve-able salt, which is then washed away by the water in your cleaner. This creates micro-pits in your smooth tile surface, in effect roughening the surface and reducing its ability to bounce life true. These micro-pits appear lighter as a result of residual salt dust which is generally white in color providing the appearance of a lighter floor that is often confused with “cleaning” effect.

GROUT – Grout includes dyes that can be removed with acid. Grout is also generally sealed with a penetrating sealer. These sealers are acid sensitive, such that they can be forced back to their unreacted raw materials and then washed away over time by the water in the cleaner. When this happens your grout’s pores are once again opened and capable of absorbing dirt and oils resulting in grout appearing stained as dirt enters and resides in these pores. The rate of damage is slow – and as such – it is often only after many applications does not realize there is a problem, but that problem will require a profession service to fix.

First – Stop cleaning with vinegar – it is creating the need for a restoration the cost of which will vary based on length of use and degree of accumulated damage.

Second – Shift to a surface-safe cleaner (see Products below) Third – Contact a professional stone or tile restoration company such as MARBLELIFE to discuss what may need to be done to reverse the damage and restore your beautiful cleanable surface.

GROUT – Grout will generally need to be colored, have the remnants of any seal removed, have a new acid-resistance colored seal installed to restore an unstained, color uniform, cleanable grout surface resistant to future damage (even if one cleans with vinegar again).

TILE – Marble, Limestone, Travertine, Concrete and Terrazzo tile surfaces will need to be re-polished to restore color and desired finish. This will require the assistance of a professional craftsman. DO NOT WAX – as this will provide a short-term solution, but long-term will create its own problems and increase the cost associated with resolving the damage.

MARBLELIFE can restore a CLEANABLE surface to you, and provide you guidance on the appropriate cleaners and cleaning strategies to avoid a repeat problem later.

Products
Once restored, clean with MARBLELIFE MARBLE & TRAVERTINE cleaner for marble, limestone and travertine.

Use ENDURA-CLEAN for Concrete and Terrazzo surfaces.

MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER CONCENTRATE – Can be used for marble, limestone, travertine, concrete and terrazzo floors. This product is also suitable for ceramic and porcelain surfaces.

Formulated to be free of Wax, oils and acids to provide a exceptional cleaning, without damaging the cleanability of your surface.

IMAGES – Need image of a uniformly dull marble floor to gloss polish.

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Lack of gloss or shine in the traffic areas where people normally walk. GOOD NEWS! We can restore a consistent new appearance to your tile.

Dull spots (wear)

Overtime all hard surfaces wear with foot traffic. This generally takes the form of dull areas in the walk paths with micro-scratches and scratches. As this is damage to the surface, it can be cleaned but cannot be corrected with a cleaner. When sand, dirt or hair are trapped underfoot down pressure can be multiplied as it concentrates at this single point, versus being spread out across the full surface of your shoe enabling a person to scratch the surface of even the hardest floor surface material. Over time, with each foot step the entire surface can dull.

Wax may hide them, but in doing so this band-aid solution creates its own downstream problems. Being softer than the original surface it is easer to damage and tends to capture dirt.

What is needed is to grind the surface to remove the micro scratches and restore a smooth finish free of scratches and damage. A professional stone craftsman will be required to perform this operation. Once done the surface will once again be cleanable having been restored to like-new.

Contact MARBLELIFE to schedule a service to have your stone restored.
MARBLELIFE will hone the surface to remove damage, and then re-polish to restore color and desired gloss.

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White circular marks generally no larger than ½ an inch in diameter and more normally ¼ “ across.

Small white circular marks

Localized crushing of stone crystals through the application of force by something of weight with a sharp focusing edge being dropped on the surface, or stiletto heels. This is different from wear marks where one has removed a part of the surface through abrasion with a material trapped underfoot creating a small scratch where material is missing. In this case, the stone has been locally crushed or pulverized through the application of blunt force.

Stun marks go down well below the surface and tend to broaden in width and lighten in color the deeper one grinds into the stone.

(for more understanding click here) - This makes stiletto heels more damaging than sneakers by the ratio of heel to heel. A 150 lb person with a small 8 in long shoe with an average cross-section of 4” would generate 150 lb / ((8/12) x (4/12)) = 150 / (32/12) = 56 psi, but if the stiletto heel has a cross section of 3/8” x 3/8” that pressure jumps to 1066 psi with each clicking step. That’s enough pressure to drive a piece of sand to create a small scratch in the surface, and on some softer marble stones to micro-crush the surface leaving an area of crushed stone in the surface.

As such these are neither CLEANABLE nor SERVICEABLE without replacing the tile. These are associated with the brittleness of the stone crystal in combination with the presence of someone wearing stiletto heals making this material a poor selection for the walk ways within the building.

Install a runner in the walkways to help absorb the impact or replace the stones in the walkway area with stones with a greater strength, such as granite.

Products
No cleaner will remove or resolve this problem, however poor cleaner selection in an effort to find a cleaner than solve this problem can result in the addition of waxes to the floor or the introduction of acids which would had insult to injury. As such, recognizing what is causing this problem, will enable you and your staff to establish a suitable management policy while refraining from adding to the problem through inappropriate cleaner use.

MARBLELIFE MARBLE & TRAVERTINE CLEANER or MARBLELIFE FLOOR CLEANER will both maintain your stone surface without contributing any additional problems.

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Dulling of countertop finish. This is generally uniform across the entire surface. Good News - This is addressable with a professional cleaning and a change in daily cleaner.

Dull Spots Wax Build-Up

Wax build up from use of wax-containing common glass cleaners and kitchen cleaners. Cleaners will often incorporate a wax in order to fill in micro-abrasions and enhance shine on the belief that the American public equates “shiny” with “clean.” These are actually entirely unrelated. The wax is soft, attracts dirt, and dulls overtime, requiring additional cleaning and fresh wax to restore that clean appearance, when in fact, the wax is now the primary deterant to achieving a clean look, a clean surface and a cleanable surface.

Are generally caused by repeated use of wax containing or gloss enhancing cleaner. Over time wax build-up traps dirt, defracts light as it thickens to block the natural light reflection under the polished surface beneath it.

A professional will need to remove the wax and address any polishing needs your particular surface may need to restore a cleanable surface at which point a wax-free cleaner is recommended based on surface type MARBLELIFE offers cleaners for MARBLE & TRAVERTINE, GRANITE & QUARTZ, TILE & GROUT, WOOD and CONCRETE & TERRAZZO

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White in color these are often shaped like water droplets on glass, however if allowed to go unaddressed will expand to form a crusty mass on the surface as seen in this example where the calcium has formed a blanket of white chalky build-up. Good news, this can be addressed.

White Hard Water

White in color these are often shaped like water droplets on glass.

Created when “hard” calcium rich water is allowed to evaporate. These hard deposits require different treatments depending on the surface. Acids will dissolve them but will also dissolve marble, limestone and travertine making this an in appropriate removal process.

On Calcium based surfaces such as Marble, Limestone or Travertine – you will want a professional to remove without damaging the surface. On granite, metal or glass use lemon juice.

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Red in color, deposited from iron rich water as it evaporates

Red Rust

Red in color, deposited from iron rich water as it evaporates

Removed with acid, however acid will damage many underlying surfaces and grout, as such best addressed by a professional

If rust stains appear on marble, travertine or limestone call a professional as most solutions will do damage during the removal process which then need to be repolished or otherwise reversed to return a clean red-free surface.

Speak to an expert 8884633220